Showing posts with label S and P 500. Show all posts
Showing posts with label S and P 500. Show all posts

Monday, December 8, 2008

"But never before have they entailed this kind of wild, up-and-down day-to-day swinging. What's different now?"

Justin Fox takes a look at Market Volatility:

"Barbara's post last week about the spectacular (and historic) proliferation of days in which the S&P 500 has moved 5% or more this year raised a couple of questions. The data she cited just went back to 1950, so one question was, how does this year's volatility compare with that of the 1930s? Another was, why the heck is it happening? Wrote Matthew Yglesias:

I don't think I've seen anyone even seriously attempt to explain why this would happen. Stock market crashes are, obviously, not unprecedented. But never before have they entailed this kind of wild, up-and-down day-to-day swinging. What's different now?

To answer one and possibly both, I asked Standard & Poor's for the daily closing price of the S&P 500 as far back as I could get it. "

To be honest, I've been more interested in the bottom than in the volatility.

"They sent me the numbers back to 1928, and I separated out all the days where the index moved (up to down) 5% or more. I was measuring closing-price-to-closing-price, so my measure missed out on lots of intra-day moves of 5% or more. But for the sake of historical comparison I think it's just as useful. What does it reveal? That this year has seen more big one-day moves (17) than any year since the 1930s, but it's still nowhere near the Great Depression annus horribilis of 1932 (32) and still slightly trails the big comeback year of 1933 (19):
Graphic by Feilding Cage/TIME.com

Graphic by Feilding Cage/TIME.com

In light of the 1930s evidence, I think the answer to Yglesias' question is simply that these are spectacularly uncertain times. Not quite as uncertain as 1932, when it really seemed as if capitalism might be done for. But closer than anything we've seen since the 1930s. It's awfully hard to say at the moment what shares in publicly traded corporations, especially financial corporations, might be worth. A lot of them might be worth nothing at all. And their value or lack of value will in many cases depend on political choices. So it really shouldn't be a big surprise that markets are struggling to settle on what the correct prices might be."

Justin Fox did a great job getting these figures, but I still don't find 30s comparisons that apt or useful. Here's my comment:

  1. donthelibertariandemocrat Says:

    "Not quite as uncertain as 1932, when it really seemed as if capitalism might be done for. But closer than anything we've seen since the 1930s."

    I agree that in the 30s the movement had a world coming to the end aspect to it. This time, I'm wondering if the kind of trading that we do has an effect on the swings. In other words, even in this environment, people are doing a lot of trading, trying to feel a bottom and so on.

    Also, as you say, government policy has been all over the place, effecting bonds, CDOs, mortgage rates, etc. I feel that people are assuming a bottom of about 7000 at worst, although it could go lower, of course.

    The bottom line is, and I'm sensing that you agree, that there's a lot of volatility, but it's not that the system is going to collapse, but that, after a bubble, everybody's trying to get a feeling for where fairly valued might be. But that's a whole different world than the 30s, Thank God, in many ways.

The Uncertainty has led to wild moves, that correspond to wild mood swings that might well accompany people who've just had a terrible fright, and want to believe it's over, but can't quite believe it yet. Who knows?

Monday, November 10, 2008

Hedge Funds In Trouble: Weather Words Being Used

Via Bloomberg, Hedge Funds aren't hedged enough it seems:

``October was the perfect storm for liquidity drying up, especially in the credit markets,'' said Gary Vaughan-Smith, co-founder of London-based SilverStreet Capital LLP, which has $600 million invested in hedge funds for its clients. ``We are through the worst and the turmoil should be gone by the end of November.''

While hedge funds have held up better than actively managed mutual funds or index-based investments, losses in 2008 are almost certain to be the biggest on record. U.S. global equity mutual funds fell by an average of 39 percent in the first 10 months of the year, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. The Standard & Poor's 500 Index was down 34 percent. The hedge-fund industry's only unprofitable year was 2002, when the HFRI index shed 1.45 percent and the S&P 500 tumbled 23 percent."

Oh my God, I forgot the Weather Words Rule. If people start using weather disaster words to describe the situation, it's really bad. 40% you say. See, that's not good.

``I don't think the hedge fund model is broken,'' said Jaeson Dubrovay, head of the $19 billion hedge-fund group at Cambridge, Massachusetts-based consulting firm NEPC LLC. ``We just need to loosen the credit spigots to get the system working again. We don't anticipate that they will be loosened in any way like they were before.''

Hedge funds are private, largely unregulated pools of capital whose managers can buy or sell any assets, bet on falling as well as rising asset prices and participate substantially in profits from money invested. They typically charge fees of 2 percent of assets and 20 percent of investment profits."

Dear Lord, now the Spigot Theory. Remember, once you turn it on, it can be stopped until there's a bubble. Okay, I see. This time we'll man the tap better.

"Hedge funds run by Jeffrey Gendell and John Burbank III posted their worst monthly losses in October. Peter Thiel gave back gains made earlier in the year. Nobel-prize winner Myron Scholes froze his biggest fund.

The managers, like many in the $1.7 trillion hedge-fund industry, were caught in a downdraft of market declines, client redemptions, demands from lenders for more collateral and forced asset sales that accelerated after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. collapsed in mid-September."

Downdraft you say. Is that a weather word? I might be wrong about this, but in weather analysis, we have what is called forecasting. It determines whether or not, depending on how accurate it is, you get caught in a downdraft. Maybe we should hire weather forecasters as our financial advisers. Could it hurt?